07
Apr
2006
PLEASE read this article:
http://themediansib.com/?p=432
It is a look at how a lot of people view the church of Christ. Read it with an open mind and don't just be defensive. Make sure and read the comments (I'm in the midst of reading them all). It is a good faith exercise. I think that there have been lots of mistakes in every church. The importance of reading this article and especially the comments that follow is that many people feel this way and it is good to know where people are coming from.
Below are some of the comments I posted on the article. Some of them won't make total sense without having read the article and comments from the blog first because they are reactions to them.
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There are inconsistencies in any church. Church is a good thing – God wanted it. The problem comes when humans enter the picture. Think of all the problems that Jesus chided the Pharisees for. I grew up and still go to the Church of Christ.
The basic belief is the Bible – no man made creeds, no central organized body. Especially because of that, it is not good to judge the entire (non-denominational) denomination based on an experience at one particular location. Where I go to church, women lead prayers in Bible class. We have a praise team with guys and girls – upfront. There’s one I go to in Nashville when we visit there that has men and women (about six each) that stand up front for worship. I see nothing wrong with instrumental music – I like it, but I also see nothing wrong with a cappella. Within any given congregation (church of Christ or otherwise) there are different beliefs on given passages or subjects. The restoration movement that CoC came from had as its slogan, “Christians only, but not the only Christians.”
If you don’t think it’s good to just pick and choose the scriptures you like (I don’t think that’s good either), then what do you do with Ephesians 5:22-33? If the husband is being Christ like, there isn’t even a hint of oppression. It doesn’t say, “Wives submit and husbands ignore this passage.”
My main reaction is that it is not wise to generalize to the churches of Christ from experience at one or even just a few – especially localized. I’ve regularly attended different CoCs in Dayton, Oh; Salem, IN; Searcy, AR; Nashville, TN; and currently Akron, OH. They all have differences, are almost totally opposite of what you described. I’ve even been to two, three, or four within a given city, and they have noticeable differences. If a church is trying to follow what the Bible says and nothing more, that – to me – is the heart of what the CoC is aiming for. Of course, we will always have the problem that we are humans and we are imperfect. If you find a church that claims to have it all right (which CoC congregations have been guilty of in the past) then don’t go to that church. You’ll end up like the Pharisees.
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I am a member of the CoC. My dad is a CoC preacher and my grandpa (my mom’s dad) was too. I feel for the person “just another PK”. My mom and her siblings and her mother were verbally abused. My father was not. He is a CoC preacher and is not abusive. Crazy but true. I attribute my grandfather’s abusing to the fact that his father was an abusive alcoholic and that is what he learned a father was like (even though he himself did not drink). I am married and consider my wife an equal partner. If I were to ever ‘demand’ anything it would be that she gets her way when we disagree (i.e. that we go to the restaurant that she wanted instead of the one I wanted to go to). We are supposed to outdo each other with acts of kindness.
I hope a lot of CoC people read this. I hope they see what other see them as and see what stereotypes are out there – some have validity. Like I posted earlier, there are some CoCs that are almost opposite of what was described in the article, but there are those that fit the bill. I believe that it really comes down to human nature and not the aim of the church. That’s where things go wrong. I have a hard time thinking that people would disagree with the idea of what CoC should be. It’s what happens when flawed people get in the picture. As someone alluded to above, if we were all able to follow the Bible – all of the Bible and not just what we picked out – then none of these complaints would have merit. I have had the good fortune of being involved with CoC congregations that generally don’t match up with the description in the article. By the same token, there are things about every one I’ve attended on a regular basis that I did not like or would like to change. Even of more importance – I don’t agree with everything that I believed 2 years ago or 5 – especially 10. It’s good to realize that if one individual can change his/her mind with the passage of time – and each time feel correct – that they probably don’t have it all figured out, and neither does any one church or denomination.
At our core, we want others to like and accept us. So we try to look good to others. When we talk about what’s right and then mess up (because we are human) then others see hypocrisy (that’s pretty much the definition of it). If we are good at confessing to others (not necessarily in front of a congregation) and are open about being sinful and not perfect then people won’t see hypocrisy. If I say, “It’s wrong to lie. I struggle with it sometimes myself, but I try my best not to,” then someone sees me lie, they are not going to yell, “Hypocrite!”
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The person “Hibiscus” above is writing about the stereotypic church of Christ. He/She must have missed the part of the reformation movement that stated, “Christians only, but not the only Christians.” (Many people in the church of Christ aren’t aware either). The ignorance of some members or even some leaders in a church does not mean that the entire church is bad. My father, being a preacher, would often have people come up to him and ask, “What do WE believe about…” He would encourage them to look in their Bible and he may let them know his opinion, but he would preface that it was his current view, that his view has changed in the past with more study, and that he didn’t have all the answers. I do the same if someone asks that to me. Growing up, in Bible class – in the church of Christ – the teacher would often say, this is my understanding, but you need to look it up and study yourself (such a very important admonition). I tell people to look up and study the subject when I teach and encourage questions and discussion because I know I don’t have it all figured out. When I’m in a class, it is not rare that I will disagree and share my thoughts and share a scripture to that end. I always try to do so with a humble attitude knowing that I myself could be wrong. I aspire to read my Bible every day (even though I’m not always that disciplined), because I know that it is vital to knowing God (along with prayer and other things).
I think that at its core, any denomination or individual congregation gets off track when they stop focusing on evangelism and bringing others to know the freedom we have in Christ and God’s amazing grace and mercy. The focus turns inward and becomes ‘who’s right about this or that’. That’s what happened with the Pharisees (along with becoming power hungry).
Also, it seems inherent in humans that we have the most difficult time believing and accepting God’s grace because we have been so sinful and we feel this need to earn our salvation (I can know this is wrong or even silly on a mental level, but emotionally it is difficult at times because I have sinned so much). This is where the idea of Conditional Salvation comes in – we can’t believe that God is so gracious to actually cover my sins. Once we become self-focused and try feverishly to be perfect to earn salvation (because of our human flaws) then we begin to turn to others and expect the same perfect standard of them. This is a problem that has been going on basically since humans were around. It did not start with the church of Christ. You can find it in any church today (because there are humans in all churches). You can find it throughout history – before Thomas Campbell was alive.
I go to the church of Christ and don’t agree with ‘Church Apostasy’ as stated above. That is silly (although I’m sure other’s believe it), and I could care less about the name of the church. I always use a lowercase “c” in ‘church of Christ’ on purpose to show that it is not the only church. Plenty of other names were used in the Bible. Sometimes I just tell someone that I go to a non-denominational church because the focus should not be on the church but on Christ.
Also, I’d like to mention something about Bible translations. Someone above mentioned using the KJV. I personally like the Revised Standard Version because it is more of a literal translation and versions like the NIV take more liberties. I don’t think any version is fool proof because the translation was done by humans who were trying their best, but if one was perfect, we wouldn’t need any others. It’s always best to go back to the original language and even then, we can misinterpret. For people that think it’s KJV or nothing, ask yourself if Jesus used the KJV (I’m not anti-KJV).
It saddens me that there are so many negative views about the church of Christ and it saddens me that so often, those views are validated because of actual negative experiences in particular churches. I would love for all CoC members to read this article and comments so that some people could wake up. I agree with most all of the negative statements – i.e. that these things have and do occur in the CoC, but I don’t think they are right and I know because of my personal experience that they do not describe the whole of the CoC.
I don’t believe that only CoC members are going to heaven. If you can find a good denomination to fellowship and brings you closer to God, go for it. I’ll call you brother or sister. Try not to then look down on other churches and say that they are wrong and you’ve got it all right or you’ll become the very thing that is being criticized. Christ prayed that we all might be one. It is because of pride and wrong doing that discussions like this even have any grounds. When the un-churched see this it only hinders the possibility that they will come to know Christ.
I see my purpose on earth as simply to Glorify God. Not to get everything right. Not to be perfect. Not to be part of a church that has it all figured out. Simply to Glorify God. I pray that God will be glorified through discussions like this. I pray that peoples hearts will be softened. I pray that pride and oppression decreases.
http://themediansib.com/?p=432
It is a look at how a lot of people view the church of Christ. Read it with an open mind and don't just be defensive. Make sure and read the comments (I'm in the midst of reading them all). It is a good faith exercise. I think that there have been lots of mistakes in every church. The importance of reading this article and especially the comments that follow is that many people feel this way and it is good to know where people are coming from.
Below are some of the comments I posted on the article. Some of them won't make total sense without having read the article and comments from the blog first because they are reactions to them.
-------------
There are inconsistencies in any church. Church is a good thing – God wanted it. The problem comes when humans enter the picture. Think of all the problems that Jesus chided the Pharisees for. I grew up and still go to the Church of Christ.
The basic belief is the Bible – no man made creeds, no central organized body. Especially because of that, it is not good to judge the entire (non-denominational) denomination based on an experience at one particular location. Where I go to church, women lead prayers in Bible class. We have a praise team with guys and girls – upfront. There’s one I go to in Nashville when we visit there that has men and women (about six each) that stand up front for worship. I see nothing wrong with instrumental music – I like it, but I also see nothing wrong with a cappella. Within any given congregation (church of Christ or otherwise) there are different beliefs on given passages or subjects. The restoration movement that CoC came from had as its slogan, “Christians only, but not the only Christians.”
If you don’t think it’s good to just pick and choose the scriptures you like (I don’t think that’s good either), then what do you do with Ephesians 5:22-33? If the husband is being Christ like, there isn’t even a hint of oppression. It doesn’t say, “Wives submit and husbands ignore this passage.”
My main reaction is that it is not wise to generalize to the churches of Christ from experience at one or even just a few – especially localized. I’ve regularly attended different CoCs in Dayton, Oh; Salem, IN; Searcy, AR; Nashville, TN; and currently Akron, OH. They all have differences, are almost totally opposite of what you described. I’ve even been to two, three, or four within a given city, and they have noticeable differences. If a church is trying to follow what the Bible says and nothing more, that – to me – is the heart of what the CoC is aiming for. Of course, we will always have the problem that we are humans and we are imperfect. If you find a church that claims to have it all right (which CoC congregations have been guilty of in the past) then don’t go to that church. You’ll end up like the Pharisees.
-------------
I am a member of the CoC. My dad is a CoC preacher and my grandpa (my mom’s dad) was too. I feel for the person “just another PK”. My mom and her siblings and her mother were verbally abused. My father was not. He is a CoC preacher and is not abusive. Crazy but true. I attribute my grandfather’s abusing to the fact that his father was an abusive alcoholic and that is what he learned a father was like (even though he himself did not drink). I am married and consider my wife an equal partner. If I were to ever ‘demand’ anything it would be that she gets her way when we disagree (i.e. that we go to the restaurant that she wanted instead of the one I wanted to go to). We are supposed to outdo each other with acts of kindness.
I hope a lot of CoC people read this. I hope they see what other see them as and see what stereotypes are out there – some have validity. Like I posted earlier, there are some CoCs that are almost opposite of what was described in the article, but there are those that fit the bill. I believe that it really comes down to human nature and not the aim of the church. That’s where things go wrong. I have a hard time thinking that people would disagree with the idea of what CoC should be. It’s what happens when flawed people get in the picture. As someone alluded to above, if we were all able to follow the Bible – all of the Bible and not just what we picked out – then none of these complaints would have merit. I have had the good fortune of being involved with CoC congregations that generally don’t match up with the description in the article. By the same token, there are things about every one I’ve attended on a regular basis that I did not like or would like to change. Even of more importance – I don’t agree with everything that I believed 2 years ago or 5 – especially 10. It’s good to realize that if one individual can change his/her mind with the passage of time – and each time feel correct – that they probably don’t have it all figured out, and neither does any one church or denomination.
At our core, we want others to like and accept us. So we try to look good to others. When we talk about what’s right and then mess up (because we are human) then others see hypocrisy (that’s pretty much the definition of it). If we are good at confessing to others (not necessarily in front of a congregation) and are open about being sinful and not perfect then people won’t see hypocrisy. If I say, “It’s wrong to lie. I struggle with it sometimes myself, but I try my best not to,” then someone sees me lie, they are not going to yell, “Hypocrite!”
----------------
The person “Hibiscus” above is writing about the stereotypic church of Christ. He/She must have missed the part of the reformation movement that stated, “Christians only, but not the only Christians.” (Many people in the church of Christ aren’t aware either). The ignorance of some members or even some leaders in a church does not mean that the entire church is bad. My father, being a preacher, would often have people come up to him and ask, “What do WE believe about…” He would encourage them to look in their Bible and he may let them know his opinion, but he would preface that it was his current view, that his view has changed in the past with more study, and that he didn’t have all the answers. I do the same if someone asks that to me. Growing up, in Bible class – in the church of Christ – the teacher would often say, this is my understanding, but you need to look it up and study yourself (such a very important admonition). I tell people to look up and study the subject when I teach and encourage questions and discussion because I know I don’t have it all figured out. When I’m in a class, it is not rare that I will disagree and share my thoughts and share a scripture to that end. I always try to do so with a humble attitude knowing that I myself could be wrong. I aspire to read my Bible every day (even though I’m not always that disciplined), because I know that it is vital to knowing God (along with prayer and other things).
I think that at its core, any denomination or individual congregation gets off track when they stop focusing on evangelism and bringing others to know the freedom we have in Christ and God’s amazing grace and mercy. The focus turns inward and becomes ‘who’s right about this or that’. That’s what happened with the Pharisees (along with becoming power hungry).
Also, it seems inherent in humans that we have the most difficult time believing and accepting God’s grace because we have been so sinful and we feel this need to earn our salvation (I can know this is wrong or even silly on a mental level, but emotionally it is difficult at times because I have sinned so much). This is where the idea of Conditional Salvation comes in – we can’t believe that God is so gracious to actually cover my sins. Once we become self-focused and try feverishly to be perfect to earn salvation (because of our human flaws) then we begin to turn to others and expect the same perfect standard of them. This is a problem that has been going on basically since humans were around. It did not start with the church of Christ. You can find it in any church today (because there are humans in all churches). You can find it throughout history – before Thomas Campbell was alive.
I go to the church of Christ and don’t agree with ‘Church Apostasy’ as stated above. That is silly (although I’m sure other’s believe it), and I could care less about the name of the church. I always use a lowercase “c” in ‘church of Christ’ on purpose to show that it is not the only church. Plenty of other names were used in the Bible. Sometimes I just tell someone that I go to a non-denominational church because the focus should not be on the church but on Christ.
Also, I’d like to mention something about Bible translations. Someone above mentioned using the KJV. I personally like the Revised Standard Version because it is more of a literal translation and versions like the NIV take more liberties. I don’t think any version is fool proof because the translation was done by humans who were trying their best, but if one was perfect, we wouldn’t need any others. It’s always best to go back to the original language and even then, we can misinterpret. For people that think it’s KJV or nothing, ask yourself if Jesus used the KJV (I’m not anti-KJV).
It saddens me that there are so many negative views about the church of Christ and it saddens me that so often, those views are validated because of actual negative experiences in particular churches. I would love for all CoC members to read this article and comments so that some people could wake up. I agree with most all of the negative statements – i.e. that these things have and do occur in the CoC, but I don’t think they are right and I know because of my personal experience that they do not describe the whole of the CoC.
I don’t believe that only CoC members are going to heaven. If you can find a good denomination to fellowship and brings you closer to God, go for it. I’ll call you brother or sister. Try not to then look down on other churches and say that they are wrong and you’ve got it all right or you’ll become the very thing that is being criticized. Christ prayed that we all might be one. It is because of pride and wrong doing that discussions like this even have any grounds. When the un-churched see this it only hinders the possibility that they will come to know Christ.
I see my purpose on earth as simply to Glorify God. Not to get everything right. Not to be perfect. Not to be part of a church that has it all figured out. Simply to Glorify God. I pray that God will be glorified through discussions like this. I pray that peoples hearts will be softened. I pray that pride and oppression decreases.
07 Apr 2006 15:02:28
Thank you for the civilized and respectful discussion. I would also urge you to read this post: http://themediansib.com/?p.... It will give you some information that I believe will help you and your readers see where I am coming from in this discussion.
07 Apr 2006 15:06:17
I'm sorry - I left the wrong URL. That's what I get for trying to do it by memory rather than cut/paste. The post I'd like you to read is http://themediansib.com/?p=...
07 Apr 2006 15:27:23
Thank you, Carol, for your response.
02 Jan 2009 10:16:44
People always leave out the first most important thing to understanting the true gospel of our Lord and Savior. That is to Hear the true gospel. You can't obey the turth if you have heared False teaching. For if you hear false teaching you will obey what you hear,for you trust man not God. If you hear the truth you will obey the truth, and be added to the Lord's church by God. This is why God gave us his word. To hear, study, and obey. It's that simple, the problem is people don't want to do God's will. Let Christ be your example in John5:30 He said, I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If Christ had not submitted to his Father's will we would have no salvation. How many of us could put our body up for a human sacrifice for a bunch of sinners. He is our most presious example of submitting our will to God. So submit and HEAR God's true message to you, through his word, the blessed "Gospel Call".